Talk:Yukio Mishima

Japanese Wikipedia wikilinks and {{nihongo}}

The sheer amount of {{nihongo}} and Japanese Wikipedia wikilinks confuses me, particularly when the English-language article is linked already. For example, in the lead, it links Confessions of a Mask (仮面の告白, Kamen no kokuhaku) (and repeats this twice for two of his other novels). There's already a wikilink to its English-language article, and I don't see how having the Japanese Wikipedia wikilink or {{nihongo}} helps the reader in any way. (Sometimes, in the rest of the article, I see the purpose of {{nihongo}}, but not here.) Yukio Mishima's own Japanese Wikipedia is linked in his Early life section, which made me giggle. I am going to be bold and remove some of the particularly tacky ones, but wanted to post here and ask why they were included in the first place. ayakanaa ( t · c ) 17:21, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Please understand that this article is the cumulative result of a multitude of editors over many years, none of whom may have coordinated their work with others. Many of these editors may no longer be invested in this article or even participate in Wikipedia. So feel free to do what you feel you have to do. The worst that can happen is that somebody else will disagree. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 19:15, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Understood, thank you for taking the time to reply. ayakanaa ( t · c ) 20:34, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Coup-attempt split

I feel like the coup attempt part should be split and expanded as its own article. It is a GA in Japanese Wikipedia. The current information alone is enough for at least a start class article, and with the information and refs available on the Japanese version I believe an article about it can be of very high quality. A person with a better understanding of Japanese than I may want to take a look. Zinderboff(talk) 06:58, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Hi,Zinderboff. I am the person who edited most of the articles on 三島事件 ("The Mishima Incident"). I am not very good at English, but I understand the entire contents of this article, so I have been thinking for a while about trying to create an English version using a translation app.

In order to avoid mistranslations, I will convert the original Japanese into simple sentences, convert old kana spellings (Historical kana orthography) into modern kana spellings (Modern kana usage), etc. (Mishima insisted on writing his novels and essays in old kana spelling, and there are other writers who do the same), and it will be a meticulous task, so I am thinking of first creating an entry in the form of a shortened version, and then gradually adding the necessary sections. I will post the translation on my sandbox page, and I would be happy if you could review the English grammar mistakes and strange terminology. Once the translation has progressed to a certain extent, I would like to announce it here.

Right now, I am trying to create an entry for a work of Shūsaku Endō in the Japanese version, and in parallel with that, I will proceed with the English translation of the Mishima Incident, so I don't know when I will be able to do it, but I will try to do it little by little. Thank you.

みしまるもも (talk) 01:49, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Wow, thank you so much for the work you put in! I will definitely take a look, although to note I'm not the greatest at English either. Zinderboff(talk) 05:21, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Oh, you're from China. I love Jet Li so, and I also like Kung fu films, and Hong Kong movies starring Chow Yun-fat. I also admire director John Woo. I'll let you know when I've finished drafting the article on the Mishima incident, so please look forward to it. It's Obon (visiting graves and ancestral worship) season now, so I'm planning to start working on it a little later. みしまるもも (talk) 05:47, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Of course, take your time! I find Japanese culture extremely fascinating. It is sad I can only really read Kanji and attempts to learn Hiragana and Katagana before ended in failure. I would love to come visit again some day, the last time I went I had a fantastic time! Thank you again for your contributions! Zinderboff(talk) 22:19, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

I have linked my sandbox page on my talk page, I'll also link here. →"User:みしまるもも/sandbox" Thank you. --みしまるもも (talk) 07:44, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

WP:VOICE and WP:SYNTH concerns in lead

Yesterday, I cut a paragraph in the lead because it misrepresented and possibly synthesized opinions as statements of fact. Neither are acceptable according to WP:VOICE and WP:SYNTH. Mishimarumomo reverted me shortly thereafter. I did not reply in kind, partly because I don't want them to get the wrong idea about their edits in general, which have been helpful and welcome.

The passage in question:

Mishima's age corresponds exactly to the number of years in the postwar Shōwa era, and the milestones and achievements of his life coincide with the historical events of Japan's rise and fall during the second period of the Shōwa era. As a result, he is often spoken of in Japan as a man who shared his life with the "Shōwa" and sharply shed light on the problems of that era.

If this paragraph were reworded so as to make clear to whom this subjective appraisal ought to be attributed it could be reincluded in the article. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 18:05, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

"Mishima's age corresponds exactly to the number of years in the postwar Shōwa era" - this is just plainly false, as we have pointed out. User みしまるもも's defense that even though the Shōwa era did not end until 1989, this statement is still somehow true because "hardly any major historical events happened in Japan after 1970" is a completely untenable expression of personal opinion that no credible secondary source is going to be able to adequately support. --Ash-Gaar (talk) 18:57, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

I actually think it might make sense to add some sort of short graf about Mishima's legacy at the end of the lede, but it definitely should not be couched in terms of "Shōwa era," a term which hardly any English speakers will understand and which only makes sense to native Japanese speakers and scholarly specialists. This is *especially* true in the lede, which needs to be readily comprehensible to a broad audience. --Ash-Gaar (talk) 19:02, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

A consistent issue with a portion of みしまるもも's edits to this page is that they want to try to replicate the Japanese wiki page exactly, without doing adequate work to translate Japanese sentences into clear English prose and modify concepts and themes to better suit an English-language audience. I agree that these edits are in good faith, but the constant edit warring grows tiresome. In the past みしまるもも would not stop edit warring unless I personally translated every Japanese sentence on the talk page, which I did for a while, but could not do forever. Writing in clear, fully translated English should be on the user making the edit, not on the person (or persons) reverting incomprehensible or inaccurate prose. --Ash-Gaar (talk) 19:06, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

As long as the statement is directly quoted and attributed to a particular author or authors, then it's fine. It would be very helpful if Mishimarumomo could provide a direct quote in Japanese, so those of us who know the language can translate for the article or at least understand the context of this opinion. (I think I have the Matsumoto book buried somewhere in my personal library; been looking for it since last night.) Otherwise, I agree that it's best to leave it out if the WP:VOICE and WP:SYNTH problems can't be resolved. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 19:32, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Sure, I agree. But again, even if properly cited, I don't think there should be elaborate metaphors about the Shōwa era in the lede. The body might be okay if done well. --Ash-Gaar (talk) 19:34, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Also, as mentioned, I don't want to go back to the situation where みしまるもも threatens to edit war unless we translate all their Japanese prose for them. --Ash-Gaar (talk) 19:36, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

I actually looked at the JaWiki page, and the statement is equally inaccurate and vague in Japanese as far as I can tell: 「満年齢と昭和の年数が一致し、」 --Ash-Gaar (talk) 19:39, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

I apologize for not being able to speak English as fluently as native speakers. However, it is true that Mishima's age is the same as the year number of the Shōwa era, and it is not a lie. Also, the content I edited is the usual understanding in Japanese biographies of Mishima, so please understand that I did not edit it with any malicious intent to confuse people in English-speaking countries. Maybe I should have just written the "year number".

Mishima's age corresponds exactly to the year number of the Shōwa era,

Also, the term "満年齢" is difficult for people outside of Japan and China to understand. It means normal age. It is a term used to distinguish it from "数え年 (East Asian age reckoning." --みしまるもも (talk) 00:16, 16 October 2024 (UTC)