This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
This article is of interest to WikiProject LGBTQ+ studies, which tries to ensure comprehensive and factual coverage of all LGBTQ-related issues on Wikipedia. For more information, or to get involved, please visit the project page or contribute to the discussion.LGBTQ+ studiesWikipedia:WikiProject LGBTQ+ studiesTemplate:WikiProject LGBTQ+ studiesLGBTQ+ studies articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject London, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of London on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LondonWikipedia:WikiProject LondonTemplate:WikiProject LondonLondon-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Poetry, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of poetry on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoetryWikipedia:WikiProject PoetryTemplate:WikiProject PoetryPoetry articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ireland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Ireland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IrelandWikipedia:WikiProject IrelandTemplate:WikiProject IrelandIreland articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject University of Oxford, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the University of Oxford on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.University of OxfordWikipedia:WikiProject University of OxfordTemplate:WikiProject University of OxfordUniversity of Oxford articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Journalism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of journalism on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.JournalismWikipedia:WikiProject JournalismTemplate:WikiProject JournalismJournalism articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Philosophy, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of content related to philosophy on Wikipedia. If you would like to support the project, please visit the project page, where you can get more details on how you can help, and where you can join the general discussion about philosophy content on Wikipedia.PhilosophyWikipedia:WikiProject PhilosophyTemplate:WikiProject PhilosophyPhilosophy articles
This article is part of WikiProject Theatre, a WikiProject dedicated to coverage of theatre on Wikipedia. To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the project page, or contribute to the project discussion.TheatreWikipedia:WikiProject TheatreTemplate:WikiProject TheatreTheatre articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Symbolism and Art Nouveau, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to Symbolism and Art Nouveau on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Symbolism and Art NouveauWikipedia:WikiProject Symbolism and Art NouveauTemplate:WikiProject Symbolism and Art NouveauSymbolism and Art Nouveau articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Children's literature, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Children's literature on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Children's literatureWikipedia:WikiProject Children's literatureTemplate:WikiProject Children's literaturechildren and young adult literature articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Alternative views, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of significant alternative views in every field, from the sciences to the humanities. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion.Alternative viewsWikipedia:WikiProject Alternative viewsTemplate:WikiProject Alternative viewsAlternative views articles
This article is part of WikiProject Freemasonry, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Freemasonry articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to join us in our labors, please join the discussion and add your name to the list of participants. The "Top of the Trestleboard" section below can offer some ideas on where to start and what to do.FreemasonryWikipedia:WikiProject FreemasonryTemplate:WikiProject FreemasonryFreemasonry articles
Two edits suggested, to be implemented by someone with editing rights on this page:
1. where it says that £60 in 1895 is "equal to £8,800 today", this latter figure should be updated to "£10,000" (October 2024)
2. Re the sentence that says "Another teenager who said they had engaged in sex acts with Wilde, Walter Grainger, who was 16 at the time, said Wilde had threatened him with "very serious trouble" if he told anyone about their relationship": the fifth word should be corrected from 'they' to 'he'. (It makes no sense to use an anonymous "they" pronoun here, when male pronouns are correctly used twice later in the same sentence to refer to the same person.) 82.7.176.216 (talk) 16:48, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1. I have replaced the inflation template used in this article so that the modern-day reference dates will automatically update. They will not refer to up-to-the-minute exchange rates: currently, values for 2023 are given.
In the final paragraph of the 'Trials' section Walter Grainger's age is given as 16 at the time of his encounter with Wilde - he was actually 17 (see Iain Ross, "I Took Pleasure where it Pleased Me", The Wildean 55 [1]https://www.jstor.org/stable/48569322.
I have read Ross's article and Edmonds's book and agree with both points made above.
On the first point: The age of 16 for Grainger appears to have taken from Field's article for the Independent, which there is no reason to trust over Ross's article – the definitive article on the ages of Wilde's known sexual partners that has not been superseded since it was published in 2019. I also note that Edmonds refers to Grainger as "a boy of the same age as Arthur Fenn" (p. 33; Fenn was 17, p. 32).
On the second point: The quotation of Edmonds does feel like it could mislead readers. The phrase "which is a criminal offence" would seem to be the tricky point, as the act referred to (paying for sex with youths under 18) is a criminal offence today but was not in 1895. The phrasing cannot be changed as it is part of Edmonds's quotation (taken from the Independent). But another option might be to quote the relevant part of Edmonds's book instead. He says "Today men who have sexual relations with boys under sixteen can be sentenced up to fourteen years in prison, and paying for sex with a boy of sixteen or seventeen carries a sentence of up to seven years. Wilde probably committed the first of these offences, and he was certainly guilty of the second." (pp. 143–4)
I would also say that the first sentence of the relevant paragraph ("Although it is widely believed that the charges were related to Wilde's consensual activities") seems to need a citation. Who believes this widely? Although I agree that this IS widely believed, without a citation it is speculation. Tamara Gardens (talk) 07:59, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Edmonds's grounds for believing that Wilde 'probably committed the first of these offences' are dubious (putting aside the strange idea that you can be guilty of an offence that won't exist until long after your death): the witness statement of Jane Cotta, who offered different testimony under oath and whose extreme short sight made her an unreliable witness; and the witness statement of Herbert Tankard, who alleged no sexual relations between himself and Wilde (and who, incidently, was not thirteen or fourteen, as Ross and Edmonds, both relying on Neil McKenna's Secret Life of Oscar Wilde, state, but nearly sixteen - see Joseph Bristow, Oscar Wilde on Trial, p. 81, which relies on Tankard's birth certificate).
If it's widely believed that the charges related to consensual activities I would say that that's because they did - there is no evidence of coercion, as distinct from stark differences in age, status, wealth etc., as was fairly normal in Victorian times and throughout most of human history. The 'Turing Act' pardoned all those historically found guilty of consensual homosexual activity between partners aged 16 or over (unless it happened in a public toilet), and that included Wilde. I'm not sure why that sentence is needed or why it starts with 'although'. 80.41.3.146 (talk) 18:31, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Another error is that it’s not The Trials of Oscar Wilde that contains a transcript of the libel trial, nor did the actual book in question (Irish Peacock and Scarlet Marquess: The Real Trial of Oscar Wilde) reveal anything new about the ages of Wilde’s sexual partners. I would suggest replacing the first sentence with: ‘Although the charges related to consensual activities with male partners of sixteen or over, some of those Wilde paid for sex, including Charles Parker, one of the two named people he was convicted of gross indecency with, were under eighteen at the time.’ Ross’s article could then be referenced. To the sentence about Walter Grainger I would add ‘though Iain Ross points out that he may have been warning him of the risk of imprisonment for both of them if they were exposed.’ To the end of the paragraph I would add: ‘It did not criminalise paying for sex with girls of sixteen or over.’ 80.41.3.146 (talk) 16:55, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
One more suggestion: after the suggested sentence above ending '... were under eighteen at the time' I would insert 'Paying under-eighteens for sex has been illegal in the UK since 2003.' This would then explain the context of the following quotation from Antony Edmonds. 80.41.3.146 (talk) 09:04, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
level-4 vital article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
