Talk:Zoroastrianism

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Zoroastrianism

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Result: Delisted, 24 citation needed tags (t · c) buidhe 00:42, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

The prose for this article is not always clear and concise, and large chunks of this article are left uncited. Therefore, I believe delisting this article should be considered. 777burger ^{user talk contribs} 03:31, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Rough Timeline of Zoroastrian's Mutation

A lot of things have been bugging me about this religion for a while, and I think I've finally finished collating a timeline of events that point towards the true nature of Zoroastrianism and why we're having so much trouble categorising it. Please tell me what you think, but here's what I think happened. A lot of this is directly from this Wiki page:

• Zoroastrianism is massive a polytheistic religion based in almost pure oral tradition until the ~6th-13th centaury.
• Islam arises and crushes Zoroastrianism. They have to pretend to be monotheistic to survive, and start equating Yazata with angels etc. Islam has a massive effect on the society.
• Missionaries like The Rev John Wilson in the 18th-19th centaury cause a massive collapse in Zoroastrian confidence in their faith. They literally break the back of the religion, and cause them to start adopting Christian ideas into it (this kind of adoption of a dominant invading faith is a common factor in polytheism).
• Other missionaries then document that the Zoroastrians are talking about monotheism.
• Academics like Martin Haug speculate that Zoroastrianism is actually the original root of all the Abrahamic religions. To quote the wiki page: "Haug postulated that Zoroastrianism was solely monotheistic with all other divinities reduced to the status of angels while Ahura Mazda became both omnipotent and the source of evil as well as good. Haug's thinking was subsequently disseminated as a Parsi interpretation, thus corroborating Haug's theory, and the idea became so popular that it is now almost universally accepted as doctrine (though being reevaluated in modern Zoroastrianism and academia)."
• Zoroastrians and Westerners then work together to turn the Avesta into a messy hybrid. Importing Christian words directly into the text, and concealing the true nature of Zoroastrianism beneath a thin skin of Christianity.
• Modern Zoroastrians functionally grow up practicing a broken hybrid of both religions.

Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 16:48, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Be careful of WP:OR here - we want to communicate the present academic perspective on this rather than conduct our own historical survey. Do you have a source that lays out this timeline? Simonm223 (talk) 17:07, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

That is fair enough @Simonm223. I wasn't suggesting we add any of that to the page, though essentially all of it is already there in a fragmentary form. My source here is actually, for the most part, the article itself as it stands. The theology section in the main part where I finally put the last pieces together. However; the sources we acquired recently that suggest the religion was mutated by Islam and the missionaries in the 19th centaury were the main part of this. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 18:13, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Any idea how many Ahuras there are?

I suspect there's two, but the stuff I've found so far allege three. Are there any others?

• Ahura Mazda - specific in the text
• Mithra - specific in the text
• Apąm Napāt - at least according to his wiki page, but I can't find him referred to as such in the text.

Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 10:45, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

I always thought that the Ahura were pre-Zorastrian and that Mithra was more or less a Roman attributation to Persian faiths, but not necessarily Zorastrian. However, I would like to use the oppotunity to throw in additional background information about later veneration of Devas among Iranians, since it might shed light on the nature of veneration of various spirits in Iranian thought: "Demonology & worship of Dives in Iranian local legend" by Reza Yousefvand. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 13:58, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

VenusFeuerFalle They are indeed pre Zoroastrian, and they are in Indian and Iranian texts. They are also at least two Ahuras mentioned in the text itself, however. I think we need an entire section on all these characters so we can be sure we've gotten them straight. Thank you for the recommendation. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 18:25, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Wait, am I reading this right? I'm not sure about this being true. Though it may be they placate the dark god as the Egyptians did. "So we see dualism in Zoroaster religious that they worship both of the Ahura Mazda and devil. Demon worship never disappeared in Iran, in Zoroastrianism worshipers called Div. (demon) as Daevayasna. According to Vandidad, worshipers met each other in Cemeteries and cryptand where to spend their disgusting ritual meal that was dead bodies (Vandidad, Fargard, 53-58 articles and Fargard 16, 17)." Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 19:16, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Since it is the only source covering this, I would be cautious. Though just because it is rarely covered, does not mean it is wrong. I would not put it in the article though, since the leack of coverage indicates a lack of notability in academic circles. But I thought it might be helpful to keep in mind. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 18:18, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

@VenusFeuerFalle Yeah, I'm not sure about putting it in there either. I do keep hearing little hints that the Zoroastrians practice magic, but the only 'spells' I hear about are actually just rituals related to their good gods. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 06:59, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Maybe it is some folkloric practise. Post-Islamic Devas/Divs (see also the Div (mythology)-article) became demonic entities all across Central Asia in general. Some of them may have a positive depiction as they were assimilated with other animistic spirits. However, the post-Islamic Divs are more of their very own unique concept and have not much today with the previous depiction of Divs as we find it in earlier (antuquity) sources. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 20:27, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Possibly. It's likely very hard to say now because they have been so impacted by other cultures. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 10:30, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Persian vs Iranian

Isn't Zoroastrianism of Persian origin? Jei tii (talk) 08:20, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Persia is another name for Iran. Remsense ‥ 诉 08:26, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Mazdaism

We believe in ahura Mazda as god not Zoroaster so use Mazdaism to show who we are and who our god is 2404:3100:1408:ADAE:F72A:8959:AE4F:CEBD (talk) 18:38, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

The common name in English is Zoroastrianism. Per WP:COMMONNAME, it should stay as is. Mazdaism is mentioned in the etymology section. Snowman304|talk 20:39, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Wrong information

“Zoroastrianism is sometimes credited with being the first monotheistic religion in history, antedating the Israelites”

Isrraelites are much older and also this ignores back to Abraham and before. Noah. Abel etc 72.92.45.87 (talk) 01:09, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Those are mythological characters. The Book of Genesis has no claim to historicity. Moses is just as much of a fairy tale character as Abraham. Dimadick (talk) 06:16, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Vegetarianism

Ancient Traditional (mainstream)Zoroastrianism, as practised during ancient times in Iran before the advent of Islam, never promoted nor mandated vegetarianism. In fact, meat consumption was wide spread, and hunting culturally celebrated, viewed as a symbol of royalty and strength.

“Although there have been various theological statements supporting vegetarianism in Zoroastrianism's history and those who believe that Zoroaster was vegetarian”

this is purely opinionated. That Zoroastrian theology CAN be interpreted to support vegetarianism is evident, but there is no explicit encouragement nor endorsement of it. To the opposite, ritual consumption of meat was the norm historically during the golden age, and there even exist purity laws regarding what can and cannot be consumed.

vegetarianism seemed to only have become somewhat widespread upon its arrival in India due to obvious Hindu influence.

as to Zoroaster’s vegetarianism, it is simply speculative, there exists no definite evidence of it, which, whilst acknowledged by asserting it as a belief, may deserve clarification.

The passage should be elaborated on, to underline clearly that this is a specific interpretation and a historic minority view. 77.47.38.183 (talk) 16:22, 9 November 2024 (UTC)